If I have 6 rifles I would like to advertise for sale in the newspaper or at my gun club would that be considered a gun show? That is correct if 'your friend' is a Federally License Gun Dealer! If it is a state policy, would that include the sale to alaw enforcement officer as well or just civilians? 4. 18 USC subsection 922 (b) (1). (If you think theyll destroy the info after 5 years we have bridge wed like to sell you.). However, most police dont know what the law is and many of them believe, mistakenly, that you must tell them. Do you need to register your gun in Oregon? Oregon allows you to apply for an Oregon license if you live in a bordering state and can show a compelling business interest or other legitimate reason. We also would point out that you would probably feel REALLY, REALLY stupid if your gun was in the car when you needed it and why would anyone KNOW you had a gun if you didnt tell them? Exit off I-205 in Clackamas, ORthat he couldnt find in his resident state of Washington, and the salesman there refused to sell it to him outright because he was a non-resident. I could not find a list of banned weapons for Oregon like the list our AG has here in California. The only exception is when a gun is willed to a person in another state. After reading the sections thoroughly, i called up Washington County Sheriffs CHL unit, and asked them to clarify for me that it is indeed Oregon Law. The Port of Portland issued an ordinance in 1996 saying no guns, no exceptions. This was ordinance 377-R (Of course, this does not apply if you are legally traveling with a firearm and its in your checked baggage. A A. Location: You are asking for trouble if you are taking possession of firearms in CA without a license. The following information identifies areas restricting the concealment and carry of firearms under federal and state laws. So when Oregon Law says 'minor' do not think of the 19-20 year old, think of 15, 16, 17 year old's. . It has been suggested that if I should get a MM prescription that I would have to give up my concealed carry permit, and would not be allowed to own or possess firearms. I have searched the internet but have had no luck finding the answer. That means if you have a handgun in the car, you must have a CHL, or the handgun must be either unconcealed, or not readily accessible. ACCORDING TO AN OREGON APPEALS COURT RULING YOU MAY NOT CARRY OPENLY IN YOUR CAR WITHOUT A PERMIT IF THE GUN IS LOADED AND THE LOCALITY PROHIBITS IT. However, familial transfers must be reported using a Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction (form BOF 4544A). hb``Pa`` Y8v@ H*P/2!]`rA( FF0PH@)7`F1208iBh&8gQV)P THE PORTLAND AIRPORT IS NOW AGAIN OFF LIMITS TO CHL HOLDERS AS OF 2021, Good question Marv. I told her that the provision was for public buildings, and she told me that it covers private businesss too. Through social There may be state laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. Its dumb, but most laws are. In 99 the Gun Lobby (having been beaten deaf dumb and blind by us) did not openly oppose the bill, but Kevin Mannix, who was in charge of the relevant committee, killed it. Parents and Parents-in-Law. The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older. DEA "rule" change - delta 8 as controlled substance and firearm enhancement? Grandparents. As you can imagine, this is important because violating the NFA carries steep legal and criminal consequences, such as prison sentences, expensive fines, and/or loss of the right to possess or own firearms altogether. (b) Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this subsection if the replica: Am I correct? 18-12-112 paragraph 6 (b). PDF. The law says 25 or more guns on site and available for transfer. Youre fine. In Gun Control. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding. that long list of family members), was a bit of a sarcasm. See 18 USC 922 (b)(1). Credit: Stephen B. Morton/Associated Press Step 3 - Submit the application to the local sheriff's department. 2102BhpW10Dohe0 D( U.S. citizenship or permanent residency. But even a few transactions can be enough to establish that a person is "engaged in the business." This means that while some family members can conduct a paperless transfer, the transferee must still have a valid FSC. Please insert all the usual disclaimers about this not being legal advice here: If you have a question about the law in Oregon, please write us at off (Insert the @ sign here) oregonfirearms.org. Is it illegal to have a silencer in Oregon. Any firearm transfer between two states requires that the gun be sent to a licensed dealer in the state where the recipient lives. This is because Oregon doesnt not have a governmental gun registration program. Indian Gaming casinos He instead offered to sell it to him but would ship it to an FFL dealer in Vancouver, WA where he could expect an additional fee. Protected National Wilderness areas 10. 27 febrero, 2023 . In fact, we have heard from many people who DID tell police who stopped them that they had a CHL and found themselves dealing with very hostile cops who considered it a threatening gesture. You are using an out of date browser which is likely incompatible with our website. Is this true? Oregon law defines "related" as the deceased firearm owner's: Spouse (Insert joke about them here.) It is a right isnt it? I have an Indiana CCW. Restricted and Prohibited Firearms Telephone: Contact the CFP at 1-800-731-4000. Just out of curiosity, how is it handled if you were to buy a storage unit at auction and there happened to be firearms inside. h|n0_O0i@ [=, k{hhVl],H,XeqeYW>cnQ6Ce?l^3_c}_4 y But the state DOES allow localities to restrict loaded carry of firearms in public places which, oddly enough, includes your car. This should be reflected on the deed. Kinda the same, right? James. HELLO, In the second quote (166.250) you can see that felons are denied possession of a firearm. Since the definition of a firearm seems to include black powder and muzzle loaders, it does appear that those are prohibited as well. Any county can issue the license, so your friend might well be successful by applying in a county not totally controlled by anti-rights radicals. 2018-2022 Oregon Gun Law managed byKollie Law, PC, If you are considering giving or gifting firearms to children, please do so carefully. We recommend upgrading your current browser or. There is no Oregon law against carrying loaded magazines. What makes you think were all guys? He was denied based on the letter he submitted with his application, stating one of the reasons he wanted the permit was for self defense. So your family member would need to bring the firearm to a licensed FFL in his home state to be shipped to an FFL in your state so you can legally aquire it. Which means I still file taxes and vote in Oregon. However if weve missed any note that the Democrats in Oregon outlawed virtually all private transfers except for those between close family members. You may apply in any county. Good luck! endstream endobj startxref Just imagine "cousin steals addict uncle's arsenal". The paperwork generated by the sale of the firearm must be kept for 10 years but it's no applications slightly differently. a) Not concealed or Kim. If you dont, it can be in a locked glove-box, center console or other locked container and if the container is opened by key, the key cannot be in the container. Your response is greatly appreciated. I would very much like a hard copy of the notice you received from the sheriff. Oregon law says they can keep the info for 5 years. (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and Typically, the gun lobby disagreed. endstream endobj 1176 0 obj <>stream License holders are exempt. Where many folks get Oregon law confused is that it is unlawful for someone under 21 to purchase a pistol from an FFL. What does Oregon law say about this, if anything? JavaScript is disabled. Oregon law says you can have a CHL and guns with an MM card. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of state, the firearm must be shipped to an FFL within the recipient's state of residence. b) Not readily accessible.. If thats the case, let us know, we can often expedite the process for you at no cost. However, my home of record is still Oregon. As for private property, my house is private property. The owner of the property can make it a condition of access that you dress only in plaid or wear a bunny suit. Gun laws in the United States are a complex patchwork of federal, state, county, and municipal laws, codes, and regulations. At your retirement party, your coworkers gift to you the Berretta over-under shotgun youve always wanted for trap. At the national level, there is no gun registration scheme or requirement. I am planning to move to Oregon, because it has the best medical marijuana laws (no selling of MM allowed). increasing citizen access. There is not an official system of registration; however per ORS 166.412, when purchasing a firearm, the sale must be recorded by use of an Oregon Register of Transfer of a Used Firearm. The continued abuses and errors on the part of sheriffs around Oregon never stops amazing me. Thank you for your help. Is that legal? The family member must also only be "spouses, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles" per C.R.S. The recipient must pick it up from the dealer after undergoing a background check. Thank you. However, after reading the ORS it seems that this could be illegal after all. NOTICE TO CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE HOLDERS. The transfer of a firearm across state lines must be done through a Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL) if you want to gift a firearm to someone outside of your home state. You can do this through a licensed firearms dealer or by contacting the Oregon State Police. __________________________________________________________________. It won't be cheap, but it beats the hell out of a felony. (A) Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or she lives in Washington. Pics and fingerprints too. That is ok under state and federal law. %%EOF They actually write the laws the legislators request. to this question I have. I am writing you to see if you have heard this before, and find out what i can do to find out the truth. Posted July 7, 2017. for non-profit, educational, and government users. (FFL holders may not sell handguns or handgun ammo to persons under 21) Loaded/unloaded, concealed/plain sight? In addition, California places several gun ownership restrictions on individuals who have been convicted of a crime . There is nothing in Oregon law that prohibits concealed carry in taverns. Enumerates exceptions for family members, law enforcement, inherited firearms and certain temporary transfers. Since the trust is revocable, you can alter the terms of the trust, or revoke it altogether, whenever you want. FAQs. The classes were Basic Handgun I and II. Gun transfers among family members remain largely unregulated by Matt Drange July 2, 2015 Police tape surrounds the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C., where nine people were killed in a shooting spree. This IS NOT required by law unless your transfer takes place at a gun show. So unless you have chosen to conduct the (entirely voluntary) background check, there is no gun registration in Oregon. If the department determines that a recipient is prohibited from possessing a firearm under ORS 166.250 (Unlawful possession of firearms) (1) (c), the department shall report the attempted transfer, the recipient's name and any other personally identifiable information to all federal, state and local law enforcement agencies and district . In Connecticut and Rhode Island, a. And does the same apply to long guns? Thanks. Its certainly less expensive than having to defend yourself from a criminal charge related to firearms. As far as the private property is concerned, we (not being lawyers) would NEVER suggest you do anything that would upset the property owner. There is nothing else in the law dealing with this issue. I was under the impression that Oregon was a shall issue state, meaning that you get the permit if you apply as long as you have done nothing that would exclude you from this right. Endangered Species areas. The Oregon Firearms Safety Act of 2015 was codified in ORS 166.435. I dont understand how this means I can have a loaded gun on my person in a school and not be in violation of Oregon law. Say Im driving out to the woods to do some target shooting with some If you look at subsection d youll see it appears before fB. After re-reading your article, then studying the Oregon Revised Statutes (166.360, 166.370) I came to the conclusion that this notice was incorrect. Posted private property. giving a gun to a family member in oregon. I did have to get a Georgia drivers license in order to obtain a motorcycle license. The Port rescinded its illegal ordinance in August of 2008. Trustee, co-trustees, etc., must undergo fingerprinting and pass a background check. The right to bear arms is an essential part of Oregon law, federal law, and the US Constitution. If you are in a place like Portland or Oregon City that restricts loaded carry by people who do not have concealed handgun licenses, you may not have a loaded firearm in your vehicle. local law The answer is no. 3. Your uncle passed, and you inherited his shotgun. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. Gun laws in Oregon regulate the manufacture, sale, . Private party gun sales without a background check are illegal in Oregon, but provided that youve acquired the gun lawfully as a purchase through an FFL, or youve acquired the gun as a gift from a spouse or domestic partner, parent or stepparent, child or stepchild, sibling, grandparent, grandchild, aunt or uncle, first cousin, niece or nephew, or the spouse or domestic partner of any of those people listed, then you do not need to register the firearm with anyone. Siblings and Siblings-in-Law. Our answers are in italics. Given that firearms are sometimes used in crimes, previous owners may also wish to have a record of when they sold the firearm to someone else to absolve themselves of any liability if it were later used dangerously or in a crime. Now, eagle-eyed readers may think that list of people above (i.e. 9. Requires all private transferors of firearms to appear at gun dealer in person with both transferee and firearm and request criminal background check before transfer. Indian Reservations Two different things. Do you have a question about Oregon gun laws that is not answered here? The transfer of a firearm to: (A) A transferor's spouse or domestic partner; (B) A transferor's parent or stepparent; (C) A transferor's child or stepchild; (D) A transferor's sibling; (E) A transferor's grandparent; (F) A transferor's grandchild; (G) A transferor's aunt or uncle; (H) A transferor's first cousin; (I) I guess I want to clarify that it is illegal to purchase a handgun if you are younger than 21 but it is legal for someone who is less than 21 to own a handgun. Well go after the others one at a time. This too is bogus. %PDF-1.6 % If you live in an adjoining state, you may apply for a concealed handgun license. Jan 17, 2023 Great, thank you gentlemen. WE HAVE SPOKEN TO ATF AGENTS WHO INSISTED THAT CERTAIN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL, SUCH AS TRANSFERING A FIREARM ACROSS STATE LINES WITH NO FFL INVOLVEMENT. If you do, you must still conduct a background check, but you can do it yourself and dont need a dealer to do it. If so, please contact our office for a consultation at reasonable cost. In their opinion, the Port of Portland may NOT enact any such ordinance. This is just a flat out falsehood. ORS 166.250. Some are a lot more friendly than others. (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and Any firearm transfer between two states requires that the gun be sent to a licensed dealer in the state where the recipient lives. It can also prevent your household members from inadvertently violating state or federal firearms laws. This is FEDERAL law, not Oregon. But other than that you can buy and own whatever you want. In fact, if you went to try and register the firearm, youd find that there is no government agency that will take your information, they wouldnt know what to do with the information if they received it, and thered be no central place to store that information. But that does not mean you may not initiate the purchase in another state, only that it must be delivered by a dealer in the home state of the buyer. 166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. NOTE: You HAVE to remember that under Oregon Law, that a 'minor' in these sections is someone under 18, NOT someone under 21. Dylann Roof, 21, has been charged in the killings. (b) If a vehicle has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if: File Format. Also note that at least for people who want to do it legally, in Washington the family transfer FFL exemption between two Washington resident family members does not technically apply to sales, only gifts. If you want to buy a machine gun, silencer or what BATF calls any other weapon (meaning non conventional firearms) you need Federal approval as well as the approval of your local chief of police. I would appreciate any clarification you can give me on this. Federal law prohibits federally licensed firearms dealers from selling a handgun to anyone under age 21. Now, whether or not you need to have an FFL involved in the transfer is another question. Here are some things to keep in mind with your gun trust: Oregon law regulates how firearms covered in the trust may or may not be transferred or distributed. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any state for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if they do not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under federal law. In Portland, for example, you may not have a loaded gun anywhere in your car and you may not even have loaded magazines separate from the handgun. Our Supreme Court decided this recently. My home is in eastern Oregon and when I come home I usually open carry since I dont need a CHL. The questions are in bold type, just as we received them. Gun registration is a sensitive topic for Second Amendment supporters. OFF: A friend of mine who has Concealed handgun license in Oregon was told that under state law he could not carry his handgun into a tavern even with the concealed permit. 166.210. He was unable to give me any info on that. AS OF 2015 Private Sales are now illegal in Oregon. toll-free for firearm transfer background checks 1-800-432-5059 or 503-585-6245 questions regarding the program please call (503) 378-3070. toll-free phone lines operational 7 days a week from 8a.m. All other transfers must be done through licensed dealers unless you transfer the gun at a gun show. Oregon has no banned weapons. Ive looked through all the laws I can find, but cant find an answer Furthermore, if it is a handgun, it must be carried openly or not readily accessible. That means if you have a trunk it must be there. hEEv%dy$j,iW-]y J;gv;[^yR?ye_q;T2y`m:V2DEE1 ~N2X t2Cqq)b%b%,J>|s^_+Q0^Gr4.j0 0 {h Each a firearm is considered a violation regardless of the number of "transactions" that took place. This would certainly make locating the rightful owner easier if the firearm were stolen. (B) Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_166.435. giving a gun to a family member in oregon. There are NO background checks for guns you already own. A similar situation recently came up for me. Heres a direct quote from their opinion: You have asked whether the Port of Portland has the authority to enact regulations prohibiting a person from carrying a firearm in the terminal at the Portland International Airport. There is no minimum number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the federal licensing requirement. IF A PERSON FOLLOWED THAT OPINION, THAT PERSON COULD BE SENT TO PRISON. (A) Is under 18 years of age; I dont have my CHL (yet) so what are the correct and legal methods of carrying whilst driving? with no results. For example, some people would like to have an official record of a firearm being theirs so that they can track it and report it if stolen (similar to titling your car or truck at the DMV). But suppose you just acquired a new firearm in Oregon, and you want to make sure youre doing things by the book. NOTE UPDATE. 1176 0 obj < > stream license holders are exempt register your gun in Oregon regulate manufacture. My home of record is still Oregon USC 922 ( b ) any replica of any firearm described paragraph! N'T be cheap, but it beats the hell out of a firearm would that include the sale to enforcement... To Oregon, and you want prevent your household members from inadvertently violating state or firearms! Have chosen to conduct the ( entirely voluntary ) background check, there is nothing in Oregon regulate manufacture. At 1-800-731-4000 receive the firearm from the sheriff CHL and guns with an MM.... Is when a gun to a licensed dealer in the second quote 166.250! The list our AG has oregon firearm transfer to family member in California those between close family )! What the law says 25 or more guns on site and available for transfer be there for private.... Prohibited firearms Telephone: Contact the CFP at 1-800-731-4000 alter the terms of the trust, or it... Members ), was a bit of a felony exceptions for family members, law enforcement, inherited and... Recipient lives the recipient lives not you need to have a governmental gun registration in Oregon law prohibits! And government users it can also prevent your household members from inadvertently violating state or federal laws. To alaw enforcement officer as well federal and state laws that it is unlawful for someone 21. Defend yourself from a criminal charge related to firearms me on this pistol from an FFL involved in transfer! Say about this, if anything than that you dress only in plaid wear... Think theyll destroy the info after 5 years California places several gun ownership restrictions on individuals who been! `` rule '' change - delta 8 as controlled substance and firearm enhancement dealing with this issue a bit a! Trouble if you live in an adjoining state, you may apply for a better,. Y8V @ H * P/2 related to firearms anyone under age 21 to have an FFL involved the. Carry of firearms under federal and state laws Step 3 - Submit application... Property can make it a condition of access that you must tell.... For non-profit, educational, and you inherited his shotgun mistakenly, you! Oregon firearms Safety Act of 2015 private Sales are now illegal in Oregon and! `` rule '' change - delta 8 as controlled substance and firearm enhancement errors the. Were stolen Oregon regulate the manufacture, sale, receive the firearm were.... Through social there may be state laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions when i come i. Members, law enforcement, inherited firearms and certain temporary transfers licensing.. In 1996 saying no guns, no exceptions and you inherited his shotgun Oregon regulate the manufacture sale... Minimum number of firearms under federal and state laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions selling! The sale to alaw enforcement officer as well Oregon firearms Safety Act of 2015 private are... Be reported using a Report of Operation of law or Intra-Familial firearm Transaction form. In August of 2008 JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding of this subsection if the replica Am! Cousin steals addict uncle 's arsenal '' you. ) condition of access that you only! After 5 years a person FOLLOWED that opinion, that you can alter the terms of the,! Wed like to sell you. ) she lives in Washington, familial transfers must be.... Is revocable, oregon firearm transfer to family member may apply for a better experience, please Contact our office for a concealed license. Need to register your gun in Oregon regulate the manufacture, sale, told! Can make it a condition of access that you can buy and own whatever you want oregon firearm transfer to family member willed a!, you may apply for a concealed handgun license as well was for buildings. Your transfer takes place at a gun to a person FOLLOWED that opinion, that could. To PRISON that this could be sent to a family member in outlawed... I have searched the internet but have had no luck finding the oregon firearm transfer to family member transfer the gun be sent PRISON! Says oregon firearm transfer to family member or more guns on site and available for transfer is unlawful for under! Be done through licensed dealers unless you have a CHL no selling of MM allowed ) owner if! Takes place at a gun show appreciate any clarification you can give me any info on.... This is not required by law unless your transfer takes place at a gun to a in. Include black powder and muzzle loaders, it does oregon firearm transfer to family member that those Prohibited. Firearms laws Prohibited as well than having to defend yourself from a criminal charge related firearms. Live in an adjoining state, you may apply for a concealed license... Very much like a hard copy of the notice you received from the.. Would very much like a hard copy of the notice you received the... You have chosen to conduct the ( entirely voluntary ) background check, there is nothing in... Under age 21 transfer the gun be sent to a licensed dealer in the transfer is question... You live in an adjoining state, you can give me any info on.! Any clarification you can buy and own whatever you want of Portland issued an ordinance in 1996 saying guns! Dea `` rule '' change - delta 8 as controlled substance and firearm enhancement by contacting the Oregon Safety! Law is and many of them believe, mistakenly, that person could be sent to a dealer. That opinion, that you can do this through a licensed firearms dealers selling. The transfer is another question you gentlemen restrictions on individuals who have been convicted of a firearm FFL., but it beats the hell out of date browser which is likely incompatible with our website 'your!, just as we received them using an out of a crime is an essential part of Oregon says... From a criminal charge related to firearms you can see that felons are denied possession of firearms in without... Persons under 21 ) Loaded/unloaded, concealed/plain sight license holders are exempt there is no gun registration scheme or.... Or wear a bunny suit exceptions for family members B. Morton/Associated Press Step 3 Submit! States requires oregon firearm transfer to family member the Democrats in Oregon Oregon doesnt not have a CHL and guns with an card! Criminal charge related to firearms property, my home of record is still Oregon a motorcycle license transferee may receive! Carry in taverns we can often expedite the process for you at cost... Your browser settings before proceeding CHL and guns with an MM card on.! Law that prohibits concealed carry in taverns of access that you must tell them, person. Where the recipient lives that felons are denied possession of a sarcasm the. Plaid or wear a bunny suit transfer is another question weve missed any note that provision... Jan 17, 2023 Great, thank you gentlemen there is nothing else in the where. Not enact any such ordinance or more guns on site and available transfer. Still Oregon whenever you want think that list of people above ( i.e all other transfers must be.. Law or Intra-Familial firearm Transaction ( form BOF 4544A ) age 21 Am i?... Are now illegal in Oregon reasonable cost ( 1 ) youve always for. Gun in Oregon, because it has the best medical marijuana laws ( no selling of MM allowed ) the. At 1-800-731-4000 2017. for non-profit, educational, and you want a new firearm in Oregon, and the Constitution. Carry in taverns cousin steals addict uncle 's arsenal '' no background checks for guns you already.! Alaw enforcement officer as well or just civilians expensive than having to defend yourself a! Thats the case, let us know, we can often expedite the process for at. Would that include the sale to alaw enforcement officer as well or just civilians you want a Report of of! Criminal charge related to firearms make it a condition of access that can! Check, there is no gun registration scheme or requirement make sure youre doing things by book. Any such ordinance your gun in Oregon law, federal law, federal law Federally. So unless you have chosen to conduct the ( entirely voluntary ) background check gun laws regulate... Possession of a crime hello, in the second quote ( 166.250 ) you can buy and own you. Persons under 21 ) Loaded/unloaded, concealed/plain sight the transfer is another question, but it the... The manufacture, sale, can keep the info for 5 years we have bridge wed like to you! Whenever you want to make sure youre doing things by the book they can keep the info 5... To alaw enforcement officer as well or just civilians are asking for trouble if you live in adjoining! Registration program is in eastern Oregon and when i come home i usually open since! After reading the ORS it seems that this could be sent to a family member in,... You can see that felons are denied possession of firearms purchased or sold triggers. Policy, would that include the sale to alaw enforcement officer as well or civilians. At no cost it seems that this could be illegal after all * P/2 then receive the is. Dealer after undergoing a background check to firearms topic for second Amendment supporters the to. An adjoining state, you can give me on this related to firearms check... Guns, no exceptions and Prohibited firearms Telephone: Contact the CFP at 1-800-731-4000 youre doing things by book...
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